at the end of the day your going to be restricted to only so much tuning without an aftermarket ecu and its probably going to be a better decision to spend the money you have on an aftermarket ecu and injectors than worrying about the air breathing through your motor because fuel will be your first ingredient to run out in the hunt for more power! Just my opinion.

Quote: Originally Posted by REVENU at the end of the day your going to be restricted to only so much tuning without an aftermarket ecu and its probably going to be a better decision to spend the money you have on an aftermarket ecu and injectors than worrying about the air breathing through your motor because fuel will be your first ingredient to run out in the hunt for more power! Just my opinion. AGREED.

@FRASHD, There are a few overlapping issues here, so to avoid this discussion turning into an argument as I see your tone getting 'perturbed', then the mature thing is to pin this down and converge on one item at a time and then there is no need for you to reply so much, yes/no answer will suffice:- So, in respect of your fixation re airspeed... and your comments in post #20 Yes mass is grams per second or lbs per hour or whatever - its still mass. If however the density of air is different then the air flow meter handles this regardless of the fact that the airspeed might be lower at that time. ie. If you have denser air at lower airspeed then the AFM will still measure the mass correctly *regardless* of the lower airspeed. You can also have higher airspeed and higher mass flow, thats fine, the AFM will also measure the mass correctly. Are you really trying to say the density of the air is not relevant and its only the airspeed the AFM measures ? Quote: Originally Posted by REVENU at the end of the day your going to be restricted to only so much tuning without an aftermarket ecu and its probably going to be a better decision to spend the money you have on an aftermarket ecu and injectors than worrying about the air breathing through your motor because fuel will be your first ingredient to run out in the hunt for more power! Just my opinion. Agreed Some original photos have not been recovered yet.

Quote: Originally Posted by FRASHD You still miss the point.. Mass of air is the same as Grams per second. How do you get X amount of grams through an airflow meter. Speed. Well the Afm measures air in grams/second or kg/hr however youd like to put it, but why do you keep bringing up speed? its really got nothing to do with it. Of course the air has to be moving, but density is more important. Its possible the air can be so dense that there is barely any "speed" whatsoever, because in a given volume of air, increasing the density increases the amount of molecules, therefore increasing amount of air. blujet if you plan on leaving the AFM before the turbo, in the stock position, then you WILL NOT need an ecu to run your cam, because the turbo totally dampens the reverse pulses caused by the cam overlap. But as the guys above have said, at the end of the day its probably better to upgrade your ecu. Maybe NICHE could explain exactly how the AFM works as im not 100% positive, but i believe that It senses the actual mass of the air because when air molecules travel past the hotwire they slightly affect the operating voltage in the wire, therefore the AFM knows how many molecules are travelling past it, it couldnt care less about how fast they are moving.

Quote: Originally Posted by Niche @FRASHD, There are a few overlapping issues here, so to avoid this discussion turning into an argument as I see your tone getting 'perturbed', then the mature thing is to pin this down and converge on one item at a time and then there is no need for you to reply so much, yes/no answer will suffice:- So, in respect of your fixation re airspeed... and your comments in post #20 Yes mass is grams per second or lbs per hour or whatever - its still mass. If however the density of air is different then the air flow meter handles this regardless of the fact that the airspeed might be lower at that time. ie. If you have denser air at lower airspeed then the AFM will still measure the mass correctly *regardless* of the lower airspeed. You can also have higher airspeed and higher mass flow, thats fine, the AFM will also measure the mass correctly. Are you really trying to say the density of the air is not relevant and its only the airspeed the AFM measures ? Agreed Here are some simple yes and no answers. Will a VL turbo run the same with a larger cam with increased overlap or reduced lobe seperation A: NO Does A VL turbo airflow meter measure the amount of air that enters and engine. A: YES Will a VL turbo have reduced airspeed/ volume/ mass with a larger cam at idle and low rpm. regardless of where the airflow meter is located A: YES With less mass/ volume/ airspeed passing through the airflow meter will the factory ECU as discussed deliver less fuel at idle and low throttle opening. A: YES Will the factory ecu of a VL turbo require some kind of ecu alteration or signal modifaction between the airflow meter output signal and the ECU. A: YES Do I tune cars for a living 5 days a week. A: YES Have I given my opion what I have seen with VL's Skylines etc etc. A: YES Do I want to argue over this AFM MAF topic anymore, based on the fact that it doesn't matter what I type anyway... A: NO. END. Some original photos have not been recovered yet.

change it to aftermarket its work better in the long run and heavy throtle

again it seems that smarts on paper dont relate to real world problems. last time i was attacked by niche for doing something taboo in his book but was proven succesful on the dyno. now the tuners in this thread have actually performed the modifications and have real world results to share with others, and they also get shut down because apparently it shouldnt work on paper. and I have just done another niche taboo, by placing my afm before the throttle. and what an improvement. no stalling when clutching, and no fuelling up when cruising. (std ecu) some people are here to share there actual results and help others in the process. not just to create a s*&t fight about every little technical discrepency.

yeh i was going to use a mild street cam, but then i was told i might have to use upgrade stall etc. because of the size, so what i did was tell him i wanted to keep the standard ecu and he had recently done the same to another vl turbo and worked a treat and was able to tell me that yes it will work. **By the way this thread was3 weeks old i was jsut putting an end to the thread but hey the more info the better i suppose

Its simple - Anything you change that will alter the car from its factory state requires a tune as the car is tuned (from the factory) for its factory fitout. Yes the car might run "ok", and by ok - i mean ****... To make the most of any decent modification, you need to have the car tuned regardless of MAF or MAP. With a modified turbo, plenum and a CAM, its a no brainer. Hell, just changing the turbo alone, or the CAM alone for me would warrant a retune to make the most of my dollar. There is little point changing setups and not tuning them. Whilst some people might mod things and say "the car runs ok", might mean to someone else the car is running like a bag of ****. I see time and time again users over @ SAU, friends and so on changing things on skylines without tunes, and thier cars run like absolute bags of **** and they post up not knowing why. Majority of the time its the factory ECU still in the car... put it in the bin, get a tune, and the problems go away and the car idles, drives, powers perfectly. People think most of the time its "OK", because they dont know any better. But give the car a proper tune, and you'll soon see your version of "OK" has substancially changed

I agree I noticed a huge difference in driveability when i went aftermarket ecu/injectors.

i agree there will be an improvement once i change to aftermarket, but at this stage, early development of the vehicle, to have the std ecu running my combination so well (dyno proven,216rwkw @5krpm) is pretty good in my book. if i had a heavier car and more traction, the need for aftermarket i guess would be more noticeable.

Peak power means nothing to me mate. Hell im making 250rwkw on my stock RB26 ECU and could make more if i could be bothered chasing it. Whats the most important part however, is the bottom/middle area of a graph, and that only comes from a decent tune. My stock ECU compares NOTHING to the fully adjusted/corrected tune that i'll have in a few weeks once i get a few other parts in. It'll feel 10 times better. It'll transition to boost faster, be stronger off boost, build boost sooner and so on. Basically everything the factory ECU isnt tuned for. Its tuned for emissions rather than response etc. Any monkey can make peak power, only people with skill and knowledge can get a blistering mid range and driveability of perfection and thats what makes a fast car.

Yeh, so maybe an aftermarket Ecu is eventualy the way to go, do all models of aftermarket ecu's control the boost or do u still need a boost controller?

Most ecus have a boost controller Map but u still need to buy the boost controller for the ecu. If your only looking for 220 little more and decent drivability look into the Niztune Chip for the standard ecu theres a thread about it on here somewhere aparently makes the standard ecu fully tunable

Quote: Originally Posted by rusty577 Most ecus have a boost controller Map but u still need to buy the boost controller for the ecu. If your only looking for 220 little more and decent drivability look into the Niztune Chip for the standard ecu theres a thread about it on here somewhere aparently makes the standard ecu fully tunable yeh so far i know of 400hp through the standard ECU with nistune with 750cc injectors and a 4 inch AFM

just remember the vl afm maxes out at around 220rwkw, if u are looking for that power with nistune you might want to look into an afm upgrade to r33 or z32 Some original photos have not been recovered yet.

Quote: Originally Posted by R31Nismoid Peak power means nothing to me mate. Hell im making 250rwkw on my stock RB26 ECU and could make more if i could be bothered chasing it. Whats the most important part however, is the bottom/middle area of a graph, and that only comes from a decent tune. My stock ECU compares NOTHING to the fully adjusted/corrected tune that i'll have in a few weeks once i get a few other parts in. It'll feel 10 times better. It'll transition to boost faster, be stronger off boost, build boost sooner and so on. Basically everything the factory ECU isnt tuned for. Its tuned for emissions rather than response etc. Any monkey can make peak power, only people with skill and knowledge can get a blistering mid range and driveability of perfection and thats what makes a fast car. cool dude. i couldnt be bothered writing it all in but... was at 12 psi and wastegate didnt hold (changed to softer spring as first dyno day it was boosting straight to 16), crept down to 10psi at 5k hence power dropped. im not saying aftermarket isnt better, what im saying mine is extremely good for a std ecu running what it is. i think there is a dyno sheet on cardomain still if yo want to have a look.