I love this thread..

Yeah but your nuts Darren:o)~ The trick is that when you have high compression ratio's, you get more bottom end torque and faster spool. There is if anything more hp as well, so all are benifits, you then add a larger than usual camshaft with good lift but extra duration, which bleeds off cylinder pressure at the torque peak, especially in an RB30, as its usually around 3500-4000rpm, and detonation is suppressed. Now you have a larger cam that makes far more top end power, with a wider spread of power giving effectively more area under the curve, which is what makes a car fast, and zero trade off in spool and bottom end power. The torque VS timing curve would certainly be less than a lowe compression engine, but keeping in mind that without water injection like your running, we are trying to make as much power with as fast a spool as possible, then let race fuel take care of it over a set point, which in the case I believe would be nice and reliable around 23psi and 450rwhp. Also remember that standard compression with CP's is 8.2:1 anyway, we haven't even raised it half a point over what most people wouldn't even ask about, it is however almost 1 full point higher than stock at 7.8:1. Another interesting thing to note is high compression engines really seem to hold out power to redline and sing high in the revs.... My new 1G has 9.44:1 compression, 255@.050" cams, and an expected redline of 10k. I reckon it'll make more power everywhere with less timing than it did before and spool my turbo at least 500rpm quicker. 6BOOST

Quote: Originally Posted by kalais6 Alright, definately taking all of this on board. What sort of dollars am I looking at for the head/cam package ? Any idea here for me ?

The head with valves ready to bolt on is $1800, this isn't justa port job with some valves slapped in, its a completely redone head with new guides, new inserts, port work, stress relieve, clean, test, assemble, you will need springs and camshaft on top of this. Springs are only about $150, cam is between 230 and 350 depending on how big you go, regrind is lesser, billet is dearer. With freight, billet camshaft, faced lifters, and head assembled ready to bolt onto your engine I'd say it will cost you about $2500 to your door. Its in the same territory as any of the fastest single cams in the country, we did much development and testing on Colin's head when we did that one with test ports, bog, short turn mods, and came up with teh best we could get out of that port. 6BOOST

Quote: Originally Posted by kalais6 Any idea here for me ? Yep Im interested too

Excellent, roughly the same price I was looking at to get one done here, but without the hassles of finding the head and getting the work done. Cheers Kyle Kalais6

Yep, i know all that, seen it first hand, turbo kit vs turbo kit one on a 8.00 comp motor vs 6.8, everything the same on a CA18T MASSIVE difference, around 40rwkw more on pump fuel on 6psi less boost for the high comp motor,The low comps motors power under the curve was **** aswell, making it "peaky" in the powerband, the trick is like you say, suppressing detonation, but if you keep it at bay it drives the turbo heaps harder. Camshaft wise, on 2 valve OHV motors, i found you had to run stupid amounts of duration to make pump fuel power to bleed of compression, totally ****ed up my corolla, was **** to drive, made heaps more power though. I am thinking 9.2.1 atmo comp, 20 percent water/fuel ratio, this with a ethanol based 98 fuel would give around a 114-116 octane rating:), with a CDI versus around 8 percent before no CDI, and 27-28psi on pump fuel, I guess it would make around 550rwkw on the dyno i use and would pretty much full hook on the street with 28x10.5 et streets. Oh yeh, i am changing a few things on my water system aswell, so either let me play with it first kyle or let me know when you want to do it or tell me before you buy anything cheers darren

Would you be kind enough to list, forged rods and pistons, brands, price and hoe good they are. And also bearings, brand, price and quality. Im looking to rebuild, with 400 rwkw +, on race fuel, so comp ratios, and any other help, suggestions would be fantastic. If its not asking to much, your thoughts on autronic vs motec, price and quality. Thanks for the help, great thread. Jason

You mean something around 250 deg@.050" and 560" of lift darren;o) I'm actually thinking about pulling the dry ice cooler off my car and fitting water injection, but at the same time, I don't want to go backwards. I've got a big alloy tank that I made for my old water to air intercooler and radiator header tank, as I've cut a big hole in my inner gaurd for my cooler, this tank actually would fit back there perfect and cover the hole for now, so it kills 2 birds with 1 stone. The only reason for thinking of changing, is everytime I break something, I waste ice, which is $4 a kilo, and you have too pack it the second before you go out as well. I'm all a bit up in the air at the moment, plus I guess with WI your looking to make the air more dense, cool the charge and combustion process(although I know the water stops det too) and my dry ice cooler outlet temps are -38 during a run, so i'm kinda in that territory already. I'll let you know if I go ahead with it. I think 9.2:1 is getting a bit too high for a single cam engine, but keep in mind you can use NA pistons and cometic make a .73" gasket, which will give you 8.8:1. John from toowoomba ran a 10.8 on avgas with this setup and it works beautifully, spools a big old plain bearing T51 HKS turbo no worries at all on the brake, it actually surpsrised the hell out of me. I think that would be a better option for ya. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now, as for the engine internal stuff, I strongly recommend King Bearings, do some research on their website, the top layer is 17 TIMES thicker than a trimetal bearing, they can also take twice as much heat. You need to run big clearances on an RB to keep the big ends alive, I run 2.5 thou on the mains and 2.2-2.75 thou on the conrods, depending on quality of the rods. There is also oiling system mods that need to be done, such as radiusing all the oil galleries, and drill the main oil feeds out to 7mm with a long shank 7mm drill. Also need to match the new 7mm oil gallery to the bearing shell, which doesn't line up with the hole properly. All of these will prob need to be done by a competent engine builder, but in my opinion, are vital to a good healthly RB. As for components, you simply can't go past Spool rods and CP pistons. Cp's are widely regarded as the best in the world in piston design and manufacture, they aren't any dearer than most pistons(other than some of the crap no name brands), so thats a given, and they only make 1 off teh shelf RB30 piston, which has a compression ratio of 8.2:1. Spool rods have been tested by Luke at Tighe engineering, who had a company they use for metal testing do some material testing on a spool rod. The test results came back that the material met or exceeded all requiremtns of 4340 chromoly, and was unbiased and not paid for in any way by the manufacturer. While some of the others on the market may very well be as well, how can you beat $890 and proof they are legit?? I'd rather go that than some eagles or similar that I don't know anything about. Will reply on motec vs autronic later. Kyle.

Sounds good, p.m sent, theres no way on gods green earth i would get rid of a dry ice cooler, spools the turbo so much harder and intake air temps are crazy low. Water injection actually does not lower intake air temps much at all but lowers combustion pressure LOTS, making a motor last a lot longer and having less load on all components for the given horsepower, so bearing/rods/pistons last a lot longer, also keeps everything internally clean of carbon deposits. So good for making stocky motors last with high hp. cheers darren

Trust me, if you'd wasted $500 on dry ice hear and there, you'd start to wonder whether its just easier to use nitrous. As for the lowering of air temps, I was strictly speaking pre-turbo WI, not normal WI setups. I very much doubt I could run both dry ice and WI, as at the start of a run, my air temps can be as low as -60 before my burnout, and are still -40 when I leave the line. I'd say there is a very good chance it would freeze both water, or water meth straight out of the air!! Now as for Motec V Autronic, for 1, I have motec in my own car with a CDI8, so there is about 6g worth of computer and I obviously back the product, I think in a full drag car where inputs, outputs, and data logging capabilities can mean everything, as well as expandability, the motec wins. However, in pure street car or street come race car terms, the Autronic sh1ts all over the motec in fuel delivery and drivability. I may be partially wrong, but how I understand the aftermarket management scene is Motec is similar(although more advanced) to most computers on the market, in that it is just a big calculator. It cross references X boost/vacuum with Y rpm in the map, plus or minus any correction values that the user has given it. This is fine, but as Simon from nizpro pointed out in the latest zoom, how does the computer know what it has to put in at 3000rpm/15psi of boost, when its sensors tell it its at 2900rpm and 14psi of boost?? This is the common reason when you go to the race track, and cars will run different AF ratios at the exact same rpm in each gear, the longer it takes to rev through that rpm range, the more it works on teh correct figure, as its actually at that rpm for long enough to deliver 3000rpm/15psi fuel as that exact point. So many cars, especially big hp cars, run richer by half to 1 point in gears 1 and 2, and lean out in top gear. Now autronic isn't totally like that, its actually quite similar to a factory style Gen 3 or falcon computer and quite smart on its own. These have their own inbuilt calculators, that know that for a given capacity(or volume) at a given rpm, with a known Volumetric efficency(how good the engine flows air) it will need Y fuel and timing. While you are the one that changes the fuel numbers to get it where it should be, if you have a look at an autronic map, they don't work in milliseconds of injector opening, but VE figures. Of every autronic car I have ever been in, they have driven and idled like a standard vehicle. A really good example is some of the forum uses here that are also my friends and customers, a few have autronic, and a few Motec. The autronic cars all idle nicer, cruise nicer, and seem to use less fuel, and I'd say that they'd run more consistant on the track too from gear to gear. My sumation being, that the SM4 is $1500 cheaper than a M600, it has as many functions, datalogging capabilities and inputs/outputs as the Motec, as well as fantastic autotune abilities. Like I said though, I have Motec, and I wouldn't change it, but I'd def use Autronic in 90% of my customers cars. Kyle.

Thank you Kyle, so far every thing you have said has been 100% to what I have been told by a very reputable tuner. Thanks for your help mate, Ill bee looking for rods and so forth in the very near future with some luck. Jason

Kyle, on a 2J, how much sooner would you expect a 9.2-9.3:1 CR spool a turbo compared to a std CR 2J which i think is roughly 8.5:1? all other things being equal like cams, turbo ect my cams seem to be roughly the same size as the 1s in your 1G, maybe slightly bigger but wont know till they arrive turbo isnt an off the shelf item tho 78.8mm front wheel with roughly an 80mm rear wheel that with a 1.01AR rear housing hits 30+ boost slightly quicker than 76mm turbo with a smaller rear (0.8-0.9) the reason i ask is that ive got a 1.28 rear housing and they estimate 300rpm later spool than the 1.01 (but more topend) and was wondering if my higher CR would bring the spool back down to near the 1.01 housing? cheers Troy

Tough call, I'd say maybe 200rpm or there abouts. Always keep in mind though, that there are varying degrees of spool and response. What I mean by that, a big turbo will always be a big turbo, and a bigger housing will always be a bigger housing. If you increase the CR, or capacity slightly, say 3000cc to 3200cc, while yes, it will spool the turbo sooner, and often in wide open throttle full power runs, you will see faily good differences between one and the other, on the street, transient response, from light thottle to full throttle or vacuum to full throttle can still feel a lot lazier than just thinking 100% purely about full boost RPM. I read something about this turbo you have bought somewhere else. Have you got a link to some information?? How are they getting it on boost faster than a smaller compressor AND exhaust wheeled T76?? All things being equal?? I have seen the turbine wheel, and it doesn't look like a new GT style wheel, so I would have though that would be less efficient, however if you have some info, I'd love to read it. Kyle.

ill try and get some info on it for you but the guys that sell it dont like giving out the details on it i can link you to the guy that had done tests with it, ill find it now heres the link http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=334970 (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=334970) he actually says its as responsive as his old 74GTS and backed up by the guys at full race another guy also says it spools a touch faster than his 76GTS theres another thread that Swantko has posted in where he says the 74-76GTS had a smaller rear housing in the 0.8-0.9 range and the "Swantko Turbo" spools a touch quicker with a 1.01 rear they also say the transient respone between gear changes is unreal with this turbo as for the rear wheel, its a 12 blade instead of the usual 10 i think it is and apparently out of the Garrett race program from a couple years ago its not used in any of the the off the shelf Garrett turbos i will also be grabing the 1.01 rear housing for this turbo and testing both of them to see the difference ect edit: just found some more info that Larry from SP worte about the turbo all tests he has done with this turbo, it has spooled near identicle to a gt42-76 but the bigger turbo makes about 100rwhp more http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=419192 (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=419192) thats another thread there where swantko chimes in Quote: My results showed that this turbo (on a full-race manifold/Ross Machine intake) spooled virtually identically to my old 74GTS on the stock intake and HKS exhaust manifold. The 74 had a .81 housing (I think) vs the 1.01 on the bigger turbo. theres heaps of info on SF.com about this turbo but there search function doesnt work anymore

how much do your t3 flanged manifolds weigh?

im aiming for 300rwkw and so far have ordered a 3582r (.82a/r) high mount manifold, 44mm tial wastgate and an 044. What cam would you recommend (no head porting) and injector size? Im looking at some powerflow 600cc from one of the other guys on here and controllong it all will be a micrtoech lt10s. Any suggestions? Ben

I think about 10kg, depends on which one and what for, but most single entry VL manifolds are 11kg with wrapping on the post office scales. Camshaft choice depends on many things, but with your lack of headwork, I wouldn't be going too large, you will however have to change valve springs, which can be done on the car if need be. IS the engine built?? What work is done and what else does your engine have?? What cooler and exhaust are you running?? I'd highly recommend a Tighe cams 1665C, which is what a lot of forum members are running, from Tempest, OVL087 and JetR31 to name a few, most have made 290kw to darrens 470rwkw, and I know of all the cams, these are the ones that back to back have proved the best results over some of the wade offerings of similar size like the 818b. One of my customers upgraded to this cam recently over a surecam camshaft with similar figures and picked up 20rwhp. That cam has a 220@.050", however if you'd like something that bit bigger, the next size up is a 0966, which is a tiny bit extra lift and is 230@.050, this would better suit a built engine and if you had plans for head work and more power later. 6BOOST

engine is fully rebuilt (no forgies yet, engine was rebuilt before i bought it) and im just gonna see how long the pistons will last. Exhaust is a full 3" straight through no cat, 1 high flow muffler, intake is a ASE intercooler and plennum kit with a xf throttle body. 3ltr surge tank, cai, ic&e 9mm leads, ignition coil and im ordering the rest of there ignition setup soon. What springs should i be using? cam sounds good, and at a guess what sort of boost do you think ill need to get the 300rwkw mark? Ben

Any back to back testing between the camshaft with 220@.50 and the larger 230@.50, power wise and powerband shifting wise. cheers darren