What type & brand blower did u use and where did u get it from?

sc-14 from just jap

Murdercity your a ****n wanker .....Making comparisions to Top Fuelers... Knob XPSI, how the f**k! would you know what cars people been in? ****head !! Some original photos have not been recovered yet.

hey stormy have you got some pics of the twin throtle body set up? cause I want to make something like that up for my car. what sort of throtle bodys did you use? and have you adjusted your ecu yet? Cheers,

Hey stromy, great effort. I have supercharged a few cars over the years, so know the work and effort you have put into it. Very well done indeed. From my own efforts with the SC14, I think a supercharger bypass valve might offer you several advantages as far as noise, heat build up, and fuel economy are concerned. Toyota always use a bypass on their engines, but because it is built into the inlet manifold casting, it is just about impossible to adapt to anything else. But you could add a bypass to your system very easily, if you are interested. This can be done by adapting a turbo external wastegate. What happens is the bypass remains open around the blower at idle and light throttle, meaning the rotors just spin around consuming no power. As you apply more throttle, the bypass gradually closes, and the boost UPSTREAM of the throttle body increases with greater throttle opening. It will completely change the throttle feel, and improve light throttle drivability. This can be used in conjunction with the existing clutch if you wish, in the same way Toyota do it to give very smooth operation. Do not take any of this as criticism of your existing setup. But as a suggestion to make it even better. All production supercharged cars that I know of use a blower bypass of some description, and there are some real benefits to be had.

Tony I'm sure your a mind reader, Been researching bypass for a week now with no luck on a solution, can't even picture how it is set up in my head yet. Read an article about the MR2 and how it's bypass works but with out seeing it i just can't get the picture. The main reason i want it is to smooth out the transition, at th moment when i accelerate my vacuum starts at say 25-30 InHg and falls steadly to 8-10 InHg then instantly with no time to even see the needle on the gauge move, the vacuum turns to 6psi pressure. So the zone between 8InHg vacuum and 6PSI pressure can't be used. this spread in acceleration input is enough to easily break traction cause it's so instant, and when i've got that under control sure as hell the old car is starting to want a gear change and ya back in wheel spin mode. I'll put pitures on that site at the top of this page as soon as i finish the bits hopefully this fri. Got my own digital back after someone borrowed it 15 months ago to take some photos of their kids in some school play, long play! Met a Lad yesterday and he has a couple of ecu's for me to try, anything would be better than my stock EFI Man Computer. Does any one know of any weak areas in the rear suspention mounting? got one split happening now which i'm about to weld up.

Yes, I can imagine exactly how it is, driving along with about 1mm throttle opening, increase it to 2mm throttle opening, and its like stepping on a attom bomb. I bet it is pretty exciting to drive in the wet............ The reason being you always have full boost upstream of the throttle body, as you probably already realize. The bypass enables you to drive completely n/a up to (say) one third throttle opening, then between one third and two thirds, boost UPSTREAM of the throttle goes from zero to max proportional to throttle opening. From about three quarter throttle to flat out there will be full upstream boost. The throttle gives even more control of the engine, creating absolutely superb throttle control. I think you will be quite surprised tha difference it will make. I have played around with this for a couple of years, and now know exactly how to do it, so here is a full confession. Mount the wastegate on the blower outlet pipe somewhere, such that blower pressure is trying to push the poppet valve open. The wastegate does not need to be very large, a 32mm Garrett or Turbonetics, or something similar is what you need. Plumb the wastegate outlet straight back into the blower intake, after the airflow meter. Try to arrange it so there is not a lot of air turbulence right at the airflow meter. You may need to extend the airflow meter away from the blower a bit to achieve this. Now these external wastegates have two pressure fittings, one on each side of the diapragm. Run a pair of small hoses from the wastegate to either side of the throttle body. The wastegate diapragm should see the differential pressure drop across the throttle body. Manifold vaccum should act in a direction to open the wastegate against the internal spring. The difficult part (usually) is selecting a suitable light spring to make it work. The spring must be heavy enough to keep the wastegate shut against the boost pressure you plan to run. However the spring must also be light enough to fully open the wastegate fully at idle and steady state cruise vacuum conditions. This might be any vaccum over say 5"to 8"mercury. The idea is that you can drive around at reasonably light throttle, and engine vacuum will always be sufficient to hold the wastegate fully open. You can keep up with the general traffic, and sit on maybe 130Kmh without ever seeing upstream boost at all. This might be below one third throttle opening in the above example, but will depend on the actual spring. The result is that the blower rotors just spin around free without any back pressure. The blower runs silent, there is no heat buildup, and from experience you will get about 10% better fuel economy from whatever it now has. Now if you ease down a bit more on the throttle, the wastegate begins to progressively close, and upstream boost starts to rise. The effect is instantaneous. If you have ever watched a vacuum gauge needle while you drive, you will know how the needle follows your right foot with instantaneous progressive precision. Well the wastegate does exactly the same thing. It follows the tiniest movement of your foot. Closer to full throttle the wastegate will be held tightly shut by the spring. Note that the wastegate sees only the pressure drop ACROSS the throttle butterfly. So boost pressure will appear on both sides of the wastegate diapragm equally , and will not try to open the wastegate. It sounds complicated, and it is hard to put into words. But think about it for a while. When you are at redline under full boost, and you shut the throttle suddenly for a gearchange, the wastegate will snap open fully due to manifold vacuum, and vent all the upstream pressure. It works the same as a turbo blowoff valve. As you now have it, you are probably slipping the belt or clutch. So the trick is to find yourself an external wastegate with large diapragm area, and a poppet valve with no more than half the diapragm diameter, or even less, and a suitable spring. The bigger the size ratio between diapragm and valve, the more lattitude you have with spring choice. This is exactly how the Toyota system works, but duplicating it with an external wastegate.

Quote: Originally Posted by VL CALAIS LE TURBO Murdercity your a ****n wanker .....Making comparisions to Top Fuelers... Knob Glad I could help :P Some original photos have not been recovered yet.

Tony do you know where i can get such a waste gate? With the twin throttle body coming and the 200% overdrive for the blower i think now is the time for me to smooth out the transition with such a set up

That is a very good question stromy. The lowest cost solution would be to try and pick one up secondhand through the Forums, or Trading Post. People tend to hang onto them, but you might get lucky. Another source might be your local turbo installer/rebuilder. They may have one secondhand, but most likely a fully rebuilt unit. They could also probably order in a new Garrett, or Turbonetics from overseas, but this would be expensive. If you do order a new unit, ask for a 3psi (boost setting) spring. This will correspond to 6"hg manifold vacuum opening pressure. If for example, the diapragm is twice the poppet valve diameter, it will also correspond to a 12psi valve seating pressure, which should be enough. This would be an ideal opening pressure, and solve the spring problem. If you can find a secondhand unit, a new 3psi spring from the wastegate manufacturer should be available as a spare part. You might also find something on the internet. Places like Sub Zero carry stock, and the prices are not too bad either. Another thing to realize is that although a turbo wastegate is ideal, these are built for extreme red hot exhaust operation, where we only need to put it in the induction system. So something like a Vortech Mondo blowoff valve would probably also be ideal. These look like a pretty big wastegate, but are made from aluminium. It is really far larger than you require, but a new one is going to cost less than a new wastegate. Hunt around, something will turn up.

Stromy, I know you have gone to great lengths to instal twin throttle bodies, and this must certainly add some extra flow to your setup, BUT..... if you were to put a throttle body in FRONT of the blower, you would not have to muck with wastegates, and vacuum/electric clutch setups, as the blower will happily run in a vacuum at low throttle openings/idle, and is truly the answer for drivability exactly the same as N/A setup, except for the extra grunt of course! I have this setup, and for nearly three years now, has given trouble free driving, and turning the blower off is still an option, as the motor pulls the vanes around without any fuss. I drove from QLD to Darwin towing a trailer with the blower turned off [economy reasons] and again had no problems, drove like a dream...... Since you have a workshop to play in, I suggest you make a downpipe to the blower, with a flange to mount a throttlebody on top,and a flange to fit the inlet of the blower [easy said, difficult to do,the swaybar gets in the way, but it IS possible, I have one!] and turn your airbox through 90degrees, so the airflow meter is pointing towards the radiator, find a 90deg rubber bend and fit this to the throttlebody.You will also have to run the idle air pipe in front of the blower,but behind the airflow meter, and instal one way valve to the pipe[the closer to the manifold the better], preventing boost leakage through the idle stepper motor. The accessory air control valve may also sap boost, and on my setup, it is removed, with no noticable idle problems. The throttle body sensor wiring can be swung to the front, from memory I think it may be long enough,same with the throttle cable. I set my cable on the power transistor mount, behind the dizzy with a small bracket ,remounting the transistor on the other side of the motor. Again there is enough cable to do this. A pipe from the blower to your twin inlets completes the setup. Hard to imagine without pictures, I know, but believe me, having the throttlebody BEFORE the blower solves ALL drivability problems. Oh, don't forget to hook the supercharger's bearing equaliser tubes to the manifold, there are three of them, and leaving these lines off will result in shorter blower life. Mine is still running the same as the day I put it on three years ago, still rattles at idle, smoothing out as soon as the throttle is opened. Also, lagging the 3" exhaust to the turbo cat, has definately improved boost 1-2lbs,with a noticeable improvement in initial throttle response. Happy welding! Geoff

Hello RB30esc. Ah yes ! another confirmed blower freak that has actually done it, great stuff RB30esc. Well, you and I both know what stromy is going through right now, so let him develop his own system, it takes time to fabricate parts, and develop various ideas, and he is almost there. There is not one single correct way to go about this. There are a whole lot of different effects to consider, depending on what you have. I agree with you though that a second throttle body at the blower intake is a very good system, and I was going to suggest that stromy try this after he has the bypass setup installed and working properly. I have tried just about every configuration possible myself, and ended up with a throttle body on the blower, throttle body on the plenum, bypass valve system, front air/air intercooler, and no clutch. But other layouts can also work extremely well. Toyota and Jaguar do not use a second throttle body on the blower, but they do run a bypass and intercooler, so it is also possible to get very good results that way. The Yanks just use a blower throttle body (or carby) right on top of the blower, and nothing else on the V8s, and it also works just fine. For people wanting to learn about this stuff, there are two types of superchargers, positive displacement, and centrifugal. A turbo is just a centrifugal supercharger driven off an exhaust turbine instead of a belt. With a centrifugal (or turbo), you can put a throttle body after the blower, and it works fine. You can open or close the throttle and the airflow goes up and down, this is easy to understand. But with a positive displacement supercharger, it takes in a fixed gulp of air, compresses it, and feeds it to the engine. If you put a throttle body after the supercharger, the supercharger still pumps the same volume of air per revolution. Think about that for a few moments. Closing the throttle only causes a massive build up of pressure across the throttle body, the blower still tries to pump the same airflow through the engine NO MATTER WHAT THE THROTTLE SETTING. So easy, move the throttle body so it is in front of the blower. But this can create two new problems. If the blower is mounted right on the inlet manifold, the airflow from the blower pulses as the rotors turn, causing massive pressure fluctuations in the inlet manifold and all sorts of cylinder to cylinder mixture problems. Or if the blower is mounted further from the engine with a long induction pipe, and maybe has an intercooler and large plenum as well, then all the pipework may be many litres in volume. Open the throttle and it takes time to fill this volume, it almost feels like turbo lag. But far worse, when you close the throttle, it seems to take forever for the engine to use up all the air stored in the pipework. Believe me, it really slows down gear changes. So a system like RB30esc has, with two synchronised throttle bodies is a good solution to this problem.

Now this what i call a good thread, good useable info with no crap. thanks to both of ya's i'm now tossing up which way to go even toyed with buying another s/c and ducting one per throttle body! when i get all my parts together i'll decide then, Just to clear it up in my head if i move my throttle body off my plenum to the intake of the s/c this will take out the huge transition in my throttle? Or if i fit a waste gate setup or similar that also will fix it? Any of these setups have an advantage over the other?

Well, it all depends......... For best drivability you need as little dead volume as possible between the intake valves and the throttle body. All decent RACING engines have one throttle body per cylinder mounted as close to the head as possible. Roadcars can get away with one throttle body on the plenum, and it works very well. Re reading Geoffs post (RB30esc) he has moved the throttle body, not added another one as I first thought. Now this still probably works fairly well because the RB30 has fairly small runners and plenum, and the blower to plenum pipe is probably short and not huge in diameter. So with a (biggish) three litre engine it probably all works fairly well. But I can tell you for sure, if it was a 1.5 litre engine, and you want to run a decent front mount intercooler, forget it. The throttle response will be terrible. As it is going to be easier to move the throttle body than build a bypass, I would suggest to try it first. It will be a big improvement over what you now have. If you drive an auto, throttle response is not going to be anywhere near as important to you. If you have a manual, and it still does not feel quite right, then put the throttle body back where it is, and build yourself a bypass. It will definitely be better, probably heaps better if you are planning to fit an intercooler later on. If you want to go the full works, use two synchronised throttle bodies, one on the plenum, and one on the blower, and a bypass as well. This is absolutely the best system if you have a massive intercooler and long pipework. My current project, and I already have collected most of the parts, will be an RB26DE with six throttle body induction, front mount (GTR) intercooler, Whipple screw supercharger fitted with its own 100mm throttle body, and a wastegate type bypass valve. The six throttle body induction is a very important feature of this, because I plan to run a large intercooler with 75mm pipework. With just the throttle body on the blower it would be a pig to drive. So, do what is easiest first, and see how it goes. If you are happy with the results that is good. If you want to fiddle with it some more after that, that is also good.

think i'll try the waste gate straight up as what i have now is nearly there, you mention syncronised throttle bodies. what if i just add a throttle body to the front of my S/C now, nothing else just a throttle body opening in sync with my current one? What would this achieve?

Again, it difficult to put into few words, but here goes (again). A bypass allows the rotors to just spin around at light throttle, without drawing any power from the crankshaft. It as though the rotors were just spinning around in free air without any blower casing. As you increase the throttle opening the bypass smoothly closes increasing boost upstream of the main throttle body on the plenum as already explained previously. If you have only a blower throttle body, and no bypass, then at idle there will be full manifold vacuum in the blower, and the blower will be sucking hard against the closed throttle, just like a large vacuum pump. There will be a higher vaccum behind the throttle body than in the intake plenum, because the blower is sucking hard. The same thing happens at light throttle, you might be sitting on 100Kmh on the freeway with 15 inches of vacuum (or something) in the intake manifold and 20+ inches of vacuum behind the throttle body on the blower intake. It takes POWER to drive this vacuum pump, and it makes noise, and it gets hot as well. So the power to drive the blower comes straight out of your fuel tank, and your wallet. So the bypass system is an economy and drivability feature, and you can mount the throttle body either upstream or downstream of the blower, and it will still work. If there is little pipe volume between the blower and engine, as is common with V6 and V8 engines, then a blower intake throttle body is more convenient. The holden supercharged V6 uses a blower intake throttle body and a bypass for example. If there is a larger pipe volume between the blower and engine, typical of inline engines fitted with an intercooler, then an upstream plenum mounted throttle body is going to give far better throttle response. Particularly if the engine is also small. Toyota and Jaguar do it this way, both also run blower bypasses. So you should definitely run a bypass, but where to put the throttle body is difficult to decide on an RB30E, because it is a sort if inbetween situation. With an intercooler I would leave it where it is, but without an intercooler it might work better on the blower, as Geoff has done, difficult to say really. On my engine I tried both locations and I actually fitted two throttle bodies and had a longer throttle cable made to reach the kickdown cable hole on the accelerator pedal (my car is manual). The Idea was that I could try a blower throttle body without removing the existing throttle body. It was a lot less work that way. I just tied the plenum throttle body wide open and ignored it. I just extended some of the wires and hoses to the new blower throttle body, and went for a test drive. During all the testing and messing about I eventually tried both throttle bodies together, with some interesting results. In this system the throttle body on the plenum becomes the main air control through the engine. All the existing features of idle, fast idle, and so on are controlled by the existing throttle body. The blower throttle body is a sort of bulk air inlet flap that roughly follows the main throttle body on the plenum. Synchronisation is not critical as I will explain. In theory if you could get both throttles exactly sized and synchronised, at light throttle, you could have a situation where the discharge pressure of the blower could be at exactly atmospheric over a fairly wide engine speed,(AT LIGHT LOAD) without a blower bypass. In other words if you were sitting on a constant freeway speed, with exactly the right amount of blower throttle body opening, there could be exactly atmospheric pressure upstream of the main plenum throttle body. If you opened the blower throttle a bit more, there might be a tiny bit of upstream boost. If you closed it a bit more, there might be a slight vaccum upstream of the main throttle body. So in other words, if it were possible to size and synchronise the two throttles exactly, you would not need a blower bypass. In other words the blower throttle body can reduce the amount of air circulating around the blower at light load, and assists the bypass to do its job. it has two other benefits as well. It reduces induction noise from the blower back out through the airflow meter and aircleaner, by being almost fully closed at light throttle. Also it reduces turbulence at the airflow meter from air circulating back around the blower. These are not huge advantages, but just make a good blower installation a superb blower installation. Installing two synchronised throttle bodies could in theory eliminate the need for a bypass. But in practice you would never be able to get it to work, and remain properly synchronised. But two throttle bodies and a bypass together compliment each other very well. Sorry for the long and difficult to understand post.

I havent read all the thread, but you could get two of the power steering pulleys... (ones that bolt to the crank) and get them welded together and run the S/C off the second one. I thought about doing this to my old NA but was worried about fuel/ignition. Have you had it on the dyno yet? Would be interesting to see what the fuel and ignition are doing too. Good to see someone doing something a little different.

goto the first post in this thread for a link to some photos. i acually used the power steering pulley off a vn to vr v6 it is a lot bigger at 165mm than the vl 110mm one

Before having just the single T/B, I had the twin setup before and after the blower. Maybe it was just my cables, but the pedal pressure was greatly increased, because I needed two springs to keep the idle steady. I had left the original T/B in place, and used the kickdown cable slot from a turbo throttle mount to run the second cable forward. Never felt good underfoot, and I had trouble just off idle, a hesistation that I couldn't seem to tune out. When I removed the original T/B's blade, and ran on only the front, the cableage was halved, and response seemed a heap better, as well as good throttle feel underfoot. If you run a bypass, without a front T/B, your blower will be working all the time, pumping air around in circles, wasting crank energy, and heating the air as it recirculates through the system If you run with just front T/B when you run at partial throttle, the blower is only allowed to use a small part of of its capability, and is running happily, without any real load. The air going into the engine is not squeezed as much, and is cooler than recycling it through a bypass system. I must admit two T/B's and bypass is probably essential with an intercooled setup, but with the induction pipes short and fat, there is virtually no lag, maybe just a whisker at the first movement of the throttle, but this can be tuned out by increasing the air supply through the idle stepper motor. Stromy, do what you want to, I don't want to influence you one way or the other. These are just my experiences along the way to my present setup. Great advice Tony, and you are obviously going to create a monster with that RB26 Whipple setup. Geoff

Some good ideas flowing here guys!