Hey all, On Monday I took my VR Ute in to get it rego'ed only to get told it needs a Engineers Certificate because of the engine that's it it. Now the engine is a 308 block from a HZ with the prefix "QT", still running all the injection as its got C.O.M.E Racing Twin Throttles. As us Holden fans know it wouldn't require any modifying to any part of the car in order for the engine to fit, it bolted up exactly the same as a 304 Block with the prefix "VU" What im wanting to know is what difference exactly between a 308 block from a HZ and a 304 block from a VR and by having a HZ block in a VR why would it need a engineers to get rego? It met all the emissions on the roady as it was ticked. The guy at VicRoads was looking at the K-Frame at the engine mounts, and turned around and told me it looked modified, I told him How its the Orig K-frame from the VR as the Ute is Originally a V8 I will get a pic of what he was talking about so you can all see what it thinks was modified. But seriously can someone help me out with some info on this as its sending me crazy as I can not find any diff between the 304 block and a 308 block. Cheers Scotty

It would need the engineers for the manifold. The engine he has 'missed'. You can't legally put and older engine in a newer car, identical or not, due to emmissions laws.

All 308 blocks are cast the same.It doesn't matter what block you use Emmisions are determined by the Heads and Manifold you use.

Firstly, they aren't, there are many variations, such as 304's introduction midway through VK, 4 bolt mains, factory clearanced bores in VR onwards etc Secondly, it doesn't matter if they are the same or not, you aren't allowed to put on old engine in a new car, changed heads or not.

can you get it engineered having an older block in a newer car? or is it completely not allowed. im goin threw the same sort of thing got a vh block going into my vl

idiots @ vicroads are useless... i had to take my car in 3 times to finally get it registered... and only after the 2nd time, they told me i needed an engineers for it. (vl 5.0ltr injected) then i talk to a few other guys, (including my cousin) and they have gotten their VL's rego'd with injected setups with no hassels what so ever. best thing to do is get it reg'd with the original engine, then change it over... (dont know if this still works) too bad i didnt have the original engine for mine.

Putting a newer engine in an older car is fine if the model is the same, everything bolts up, and you are complying with the emmissions of the newer engine

my vb has a QT pre fix engine in it - no issues with registering it in 2006 back onto the roads. its not clear cut mulkers that 'older' engines then the car 'can't' be registered.

Quote: Originally Posted by mulkers [View Post] Firstly, they aren't, there are many variations, such as 304's introduction midway through VK, 4 bolt mains, factory clearanced bores in VR onwards etc Secondly, it doesn't matter if they are the same or not, you aren't allowed to put on old engine in a new car, changed heads or not. It's comments like yours and the halfwits at Vicroads that have no clue what they are looking at thats thats stuffed it up for every car enthusiast.2bolt or 4bolt mains has no bearing on Emmisions.Block dimensions and degrees are identical as are the engine mounts.308 to 304 difference-crank & rods, blocks are identical.If I was to get a red,blue and black block, acid clean,grind the 308 or 5.0L off the side and deck them I doubt it if anyone could tell the difference.

I asked my dad as he deals with alot of engineers and having to get cars engineered as he build hotrods for a living and this is what he told me. First of all, did you tell the rego bloke all the details including the bits that he would not have noticed himself? Not a good idea. Only tell them what they need to know, or even better, act dumb and only answer the questions they ask specifically. The more info you give them, the more they can object too. I’m not too sure how the system works over there but I would start of by just telling vicroads that it was a simple engine change due to the old engine being irreparable, take it to a rego check station for a roadworthy and engine number change and hopefully you are done! At the very least, the new engine (308) may be 4 cubic inches bigger than the old one (304) but the 308 is rated at 161kw and 400nm of torque. The 304 is rated at 179kw and 400nm of torque. Therefore you are actually fitting an engine with less power and equal torque. Don’t forget the HSV version was rated at 195kw and 430nm of torque........in the same body/model. Then there is also the 5.7L version that had 220kw and 446nm of torque. So in my mind you are fitting a less powerful engine (using factory mountings and fittings) to a body that could have been fitted with a 5.7L motor from the factory with no modifications. It pays to have all the info with you in regards to the power ratings and other motors that ‘could’ have been fitted to your car from the factory so you can bluff them with bull****.

You've got a couple of issues. 1. Emissions. You can't tell me the car passed emissions for a VR 304 with that combo. 2. You're not supposed to put an older engine in to a newer car. I would take it in and try to get it registered as a 5.0L V8 as it's a factory V8 VR. Don't tell them it's an old engine or anything, as far as they know its a 5.0. There's plenty of cars out there (I had one) with an older engine number than the car... but who's to know. Also, what's an engineer going to engineer the car for? A 5.0 V8 engineered in a car that is originally a 5.0 V8? They'll probably take your money but you dont need an engineers certificate

Quote: Also, what's an engineer going to engineer the car for? A 5.0 V8 engineered in a car that is originally a 5.0 V8? They'll probably take your money but you dont need an engineers certificate My point exactly, that's one thing I was worried about. I got a Roady and it passed with the Emissions box ticked so as far as im concerned its Pass the emissions. ---------- Post added 17-08-11 at 18:51 ---------- So did abit of searching and found this on the VicRoads Site. http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/...ifications.htm (http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Registration/PermitsModificationsAndDefects/Modifications/NotifyingVicRoadsOfChangesAndModifications.htm) Change of engine 1. Replacement engine is identical to the original engine, or is an option allowed by the manufacturer for the same model vehicle The optional engine must be offered in Australia by the vehicle manufacturer as an option for that vehicle (or certified variants). The change of engine may be recorded by VicRoads provided that the registered operator or a motor mechanic, or dealer in that make of vehicle or an Automotive Engineer signs a declaration certifying the engine is optional for the vehicle model, and that all modifications made by the manufacturer for the same vehicle model with that optional engine have been completed. You will need to attend a VicRoads Customer Service Centre to have the vehicle's engine inspected to confirm the new engine details. No appointment is required. You will also need to complete a Change of Vehicle Description form. 2. Replacement engine is not of a type offered by the vehicle manufacturer as an option for that vehicle or where alterations, or changes to the vehicle's frame or structure are made, and/or specially fabricated supports or structures are used You will need to attend a VicRoads Customer Service Centre for an inspection of the vehicle to confirm the new engine details. You will also need to complete a Change of Vehicle Description form and provide VicRoads with: a VASS Approval Certificate from a VicRoads Vehicle Assessment Signatory an original receipt for the purchase of the engine as proof of ownership of the engine

Honestly man, take it somewhere and get it registered as youre everyday 5.0L... you're going down a bad path!

Quote: Originally Posted by TWRACING [View Post] It's comments like yours and the halfwits at Vicroads that have no clue what they are looking at thats thats stuffed it up for every car enthusiast.2bolt or 4bolt mains has no bearing on Emmisions.Block dimensions and degrees are identical as are the engine mounts.308 to 304 difference-crank & rods, blocks are identical.If I was to get a red,blue and black block, acid clean,grind the 308 or 5.0L off the side and deck them I doubt it if anyone could tell the difference. Do you honestly think that my comment has "Stuffed it up for every car enthusiast"? Lets have a look at what you said: Quote: Originally Posted by TWRACING [View Post] All 308 blocks are cast the same. Given that you are an expert on this, i will give you a tip; it is up to the guy doing the check/paperwork/roady/reg etc. Thats it. What you or any other keyboard warrior says is irrelevant. He or she is the only one you have to please. As VNCPTR has said, say as little as possible. How do you think that you will convince them otherwise? Take them to court? lol. I have a little experience in the matter, having dealt with vicroads and engine conversions before, as well as being a roadworthy mechanic, but please, go ahead i am interested to see what else you have to say

Quote: Originally Posted by mulkers [View Post] Do you honestly think that my comment has "Stuffed it up for every car enthusiast"? Lets have a look at what you said: Given that you are an expert on this, i will give you a tip; it is up to the guy doing the check/paperwork/roady/reg etc. Thats it. What you or any other keyboard warrior says is irrelevant. He or she is the only one you have to please. As VNCPTR has said, say as little as possible. How do you think that you will convince them otherwise? Take them to court? lol. I have a little experience in the matter, having dealt with vicroads and engine conversions before, as well as being a roadworthy mechanic, but please, go ahead i am interested to see what else you have to say My point exactly,you have little or no experience when it comes to 308/304 engines and either does Vicroads.I'm no keyboard warrior I just know my 308/304 motors. You claim to be a roadworthy machanic so tell me the bull**** excuse why you can't use an older 308/304 block.If the reason is emmisions than you as a claimed mechanic should know that heads and manifold determine emmisions not blocks.The problem with Vicroads is that the people checking the paperwork and the car have absolutely no Idea at all and yes I have to agree that that's the moron you need to convince to get it passed, but if it was my car I would't say **** to them I would just give them my paperwork and if there was a problem then I would deal with it.I have dealt with Vicroads and EPA and I tell you what if you think people should just take it lying down your mistaken,FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS or else we will all be riding around on trams.I don't have a problem with not been allowed to use an older block but I want a valid reason why. I know that Vicroads holds seminars when new changes are made to roadworthy laws,why is it that no-one in the industry challenges them for being wrong. Mark Webber was right we are a Nanny State full of soft****s.

So if you get it passed as a 308 because mr vicroads didnt know the difference, what happens when mr epa notices that you block has 308 stamped on the side instead of 5L and has non VU prefix??

The heads, block and manifold dont determine the law, the paperwork and policies do. That is the 'excuse' why you can't put an older engine in a new car. Also, i do have quite a bit of experience with Holden v8's. (There is a complete valvetrain next to my computer as i write this, as well as ECUs, a rebuilt dizzy etc) XEC747 is right, the EPA is the government body that will give you grief over this, if vicroads don't, due to the engine number. (304s up until VPII/VQ still had '308' on the side of the block, VR has 5.0, and VRII onwards had nothing as they were 5.0 or 5.7)

You sure about that? My 92 VR motor has 5.0L cast on the side. When I was working at Harrop they had a brand new VN group A 5.0 with no engine number because it was for a race car had 5.0L cast on the side aswell. I thought the purpose of the change from block cast with 308 to 5.0L was to help differentiate the efi-non efi as well as engine number prefix's?

just wanted to say, the 1st time my car went into the pits... female was looking at it... didnt even jerry that it was injected, she was about to pass it... then comes some fool, probably supervisor or what ever... (looking at every car in pit) looks @ the engine and says "TO POWERFUL" and it all went down hill from there. tried stating, that vl's came out with 308s, walkies came with 304 twin throtts.. nope, wasnt good enough. "304 injected more powerful then 308" "walky is HSV series not same as calais" calls up head office... they say NOPE, needs engineers. cousin goes in pits.... registered 1st go. get my car engineered with 19inch rims... guy goes "those rims look to big for that car" its engineered, so go fk urself. "ok"

Quote: Originally Posted by XEC747 [View Post] You sure about that? My 92 VR motor has 5.0L cast on the side. When I was working at Harrop they had a brand new VN group A 5.0 with no engine number because it was for a race car had 5.0L cast on the side aswell. I thought the purpose of the change from block cast with 308 to 5.0L was to help differentiate the efi-non efi as well as engine number prefix's? Sort of, but there is a massive overlap. VR's should have 5.0 on the side, late VR's have nothing (same as VS and VT) The engine code number is the easiest indicator to go off of. The crankshafts are also different in the early 304's (early 304 VK's) EDIT: XEC747, i re-read what i had wrote, and i included VR twice, it should have been 308 up until VP/VQ, VR were 5.0 and late VR onwards have nothing